Thanks for Coming Back
Welcome to "Thanks for Coming Back," where every episode feels like a heart-to-heart in your favorite coffee spot. Hosted by Dr. Latasha Nelson, this podcast strips back the layers of leadership to reveal the real, relatable side of guiding and growing, whether you're a seasoned pro or just starting out.
Settle in with your brew of choice as Latasha shares her world of insights and experiences, blending wisdom with warmth in conversations that matter. It’s not just her stories, though; guests from all walks of life join in to share their own tales of triumph and challenge, adding flavors of diversity and depth to the mix.
"Thanks for Coming Back" is more than just a podcast—it's a community where we all learn and grow together. It's about tackling our challenges, getting better at what we do, and embracing the leader within. So come join the conversation, and let’s make leadership a part of our daily lives.
Thanks for Coming Back
Respect Reimagined: The Curiosity Play
Ever wondered how respect and curiosity can positively change the way you lead? In this exciting episode, we chat with Dr. Julie Pham, who has an amazing background from running a Vietnamese newspaper during tough times to leading in the tech world. She started CuriosityBased to improve workplace relationships and shares her insights on how curiosity and respect can build strong organizations, even when working remotely.
Julie talks about her book, “Seven Forms of Respect,” and why creating a learning environment is key for keeping employees engaged and growing. Leadership isn’t about having all the answers—it’s about being real and open. We discuss how to handle uncertainty with honesty and how asking questions can be a strength. Julie shares personal stories and practical tips to help leaders feel more comfortable with the unknown.
We also talk about the cultural pressures that can stop curiosity at work and how to encourage asking questions. Julie gives advice on clear communication, especially for senior leaders, and how sharing personal experiences can build trust within teams. Finally, we highlight the importance of taking risks in building relationships and the long-term benefits of understanding each other. This episode is packed with insights on creating a culture of curiosity and respect in both your personal and professional life.
Hey everyone, welcome to Thanks for Coming Back. I'm your host, dr LaTosha Nelson, and today's episode is gonna be a real eye-opener. We have the incredible Dr Julie Pham with us, and she's here to shake up how we think about respect and curiosity. Julie has done everything, from running a family newspaper during tough times to navigating the high-tech world, and now she's turned her focus to helping people and companies work better together through her company, curiositybased. Today, she's going to share her unique take on what respect really means and how being curious can make all the difference at work and beyond. You're going to love the stories and insights she brings. All right. So, julie, you have a very unique, diverse background. I am so eager for all of us to hear about it. Can you just start by telling us about your career journey and what inspired you to focus on being an expert on respect?
Speaker 2:So I am trained as a historian. I have a PhD in modern intellectual Southeast Asian history and after finishing up my dissertation, I returned to Seattle, where my parents had founded the first privately owned Vietnamese language newspaper, and I ran the newspaper during the Great Recession. So I was the managing editor, and that's where I got my real life MBA. Now, after working with eight people, half of them who have the same last name as me, making very little money, I decided you know, I need to go to a bigger org. So that's actually when I went into tech and I spent nine years in the tech industry. The last six years was at a nonprofit trade association that advocated on behalf of the tech industry, and that's where I got my second real life PhD in organizational development, and what I learned from creating a new community engagement program became the foundation for my company, curiositybase, which I founded in the middle of the pandemic in 2021.
Speaker 1:What I just heard there was that you are a very courageous person and obviously very curious. That's actually one of my favorite topics is curiosity, because it's one of those things in the world that I feel like if we had just a little bit more of it, things would be way better. So tell us more about your company CuriosityBased. What stuck with you one day that said I have to start this organization, and what impact are you looking to have with it?
Speaker 2:I think that we live in really polarized times right now and we're all kind of judgmental. I think that there are political reasons for that, there are cultural reasons for that, and the way that we can learn is actually from one another. I got to tell you, latasha, when I started working on the newspaper I wasn't very curious, and it was actually through community building that I learned to develop that. So the question that I like to ask people is are you willing to learn from others here? And that's a real question, because that makes people pause. Wait a minute, am I, am I really? I know I'm supposed to say yes, I know I'm supposed to say yes, because I'm going to look arrogant if I don't, but am I actually practicing that? And so we think of curiosity as a practice, which I can talk about more later on.
Speaker 2:The impact that we want to have on the world is for better relationships, just for people to have better relationships with one another, because I want people to practice curiosity in the world, starting in the workplace, because that's where we spend most of our waking hours and we know that people will stay at jobs they don't like if they like the people they work with and they will leave jobs that they like if they don't like the people they work with. So relationships at work really matter. I want to also help organizations become learning organizations. Learning doesn't stop at school, and yet there are a lot of companies and organizations that think, okay, when you get to the workplace, you are just supposed to do what you're good at, which is actually very extractive. And if people can go into the workplace and feel I'm being invested in, I get to learn here, I get to continue to grow here, then they will give more to the organization, and that is actually an organization that's going to be resilient through changing environments and times.
Speaker 1:You're absolutely right and I'm a huge fan of Liz Wiseman, her books on multipliers and impact players and accidental diminishers and just diminishers in general.
Speaker 1:But I think that most of us, I'd like to believe, do it accidentally right when the expectation is go forth. Here's the directive, get her done, and we aren't fostering the relationships that create psychological safety and allow us to explore more right, and it hinders things like creativity. You definitely don't want to be the curious one anymore, or even pegged as one with curiosity, and I don't know how we move forward innovatively without fostering those types of environments. Now I have to ask you this because I imagine that in some ways, it's probably a little bit easier to be curious in person, and then during the pandemic, most of us found ourselves working remotely and living behind a camera and in some ways, not even behind a camera. Some of us may not have even turned our cameras on, so it became a little bit easier to not want to be curious. What are the thoughts on that? Do you have any observations on how pre-pandemic, pandemic and post-pandemic has affected our desire to be more curious?
Speaker 2:I actually don't think that working remotely is the issue. I think it's how we invest our time in being intentional. So I wrote a book called Seven Forms of Respect, and when I do workshops with organizations, I like to pull people on what causes misalignment around respect in their organization. Check all that apply Working remotely is consistently one of the lowest ranked consistently the lowest ranked, and the reason why is if someone doesn't know how to intentionally communicate in person, they're not going to know how to do it remotely.
Speaker 2:It actually doesn't. That's just the medium. I think the issue, though, is are we setting aside the time when we are in person? Sometimes, we have to set aside the time because there's that buffer time, and when we're remote, we don't have that buffer time. We actually then have to be intentional about making it. So I actually think it's to say, oh, if we were in person, everything would be perfect. No, it just means you have to build in the time. That kind of automatically gets built in when we're in person, and so, yeah, I don't think it's about just being remote. I think it's about being intentional.
Speaker 1:Now, you just touched on a framework that you developed called the seven forms of respect. Can you tell us more about that and how we could benefit more from it, not just individually, but within our organizations? Latasha, have you heard?
Speaker 2:of the five love languages? Yes, okay.
Speaker 1:Just to be safe, but to be safe.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and so the idea, and so the question. And so, with seven forms of respect, it is a communication and relationship building framework. So, with Seven Forms of Respect, it is a communication and relationship building framework, and what we assert is that respect is relative, it's subjective, it's dynamic and it's also contradictory, because, latosha, do you always do what you say you're going to do?
Speaker 1:I try really hard.
Speaker 2:I hear that I try, but you don't. I have to be realistic, I don't? I hear that I try, but you don't. Right, I have to be realistic?
Speaker 1:I don't. I am positive for even just perception right. So what I might think I did, that I committed to someone might feel like, hey, that's not what I thought you were going to do, and in my mind I did exactly what I thought I told you I was going to do, right. So I try to account for that. We remember it that way.
Speaker 2:Yes, we remember. And yet if you were to ask that other person, did Latasha do what she said she was going to do? No, and so the seven forms of respect is we can agree on how respect feels to feel seen, heard, acknowledged, appreciated. We disagree on what does respect look like? Should I see you on every single email or am I just filling up your inbox? Do you want me to do all the work, as you told me to do it, or is it just about getting the work done? Doesn't matter how I do it.
Speaker 2:And so the seven forms of respect. It's actually a bit more dynamic than the five love languages, because what it recognizes is that we, as individuals it depends on the context, it depends Am I interacting at work or at home? And what is the purpose of being together in a family? We're just trying to be together. I'm going to be a lot more flexible than I am at work, which is we're trying to ship a product or serve our mission. And so seven forms of respect. It recognizes that respect is dynamic. And yet the way we talk about respect now is we talk about it as if it's thick and as if it's universal, as if we mean the same thing, which leads us to only think there's respect and disrespect, and I don't believe in that binary. I think that we all want to respect each other. We just have different ways, and so one of the big misconceptions about seven forms of respect is that I'm going to teach you how to be respectful. Okay, we've got to blow this out more.
Speaker 1:Because my brain is going in all these directions for how our individual perceptions of respect could be different, right, I think culturally, I think socioeconomically, there's like so many things. Right. Then on the workplace traditionally we've had a hierarchical framework, right, but then you have other organizations who are trying to really be more dynamic in how they look at leadership. Can you blow that out a little bit more for our audience and specifically for someone looking like I'm an aspiring leader, I know I can make an impact. I'm not really sure how I need to move in this respect space. And then for those who have been at it for a while, so they may be a little bit more settled in their thinking about it and how that thinking might need to shift some.
Speaker 2:Shifting from it's fixed and universal to that it's dynamic, relative, subjective and contradictory. And in organizations, respect lives in layers. It lives in layers. So I'm going to give you an analogy of language. So if you think about a organization and the CEO and the board, the leadership at the top, what they do not what they say they do, but what they do sets the norms for respect. And what are the seven of the seven they prioritize and which are the ones they deprioritize? That's the national language.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to give you, when I was working at a large corporate tech, they prioritized candor. So everyone was very, very candid to the point of if any stranger came into the room, they're just candor. So everyone was very, very candid to the point of if any stranger came into the room, they're just oh, you guys are being jerks, right. But there's also a lot of acknowledgement all the time You're awesome, you're amazing, wonderful. There was a lot of information. Everyone was CC'd on everything. What we didn't have was punctuality, because people were triple booked so there was no way you could be punctual and they didn't have attention, because people multitask all the time. So that's the national.
Speaker 2:And then in a new organization they have different departments. There might be finance, engineering, marketing, customer service. They have their own leaders and they also have their own functions. The function of marketing is very different from the function of finance, and what they do and what they prioritize as respect, I call that the regional dialects. And then there's me. I'm the individual and I have my own priorities too. And you know, people who do best in an org are those who are multilingual, those who can go to different departments and speak and flex.
Speaker 2:And so the idea is about flexing. And then there's also sometimes I don't want to flex. This is I'm flexing all the time and and it's not working for me, and so that also has to be. I have to be honest with myself. This work culture isn't going to work for me. And so for seven forms of respect, it really gets people to think, yes, I have my individual preferences and I also, I as an individual, belong to multiple communities, cultures and identities. At the same time, Work does not have to satisfy all my needs. When I'm at work here. I am in an org and we are committed to this. Can I flex? Can I flex? And if not, then I have to be honest with myself and say, like, this isn't the place for me.
Speaker 2:So, latasha, you asked how leaders, aspiring leaders, established leaders, what they can do is. It's about getting curious. It's about practicing curiosity around respect, rather than saying this is what respect looks like, and we always need to have this because it will actually shift, even depending on the stage of the work. So let's say, you are an early stage startup at Facebook to break everything versus a big corporation or government. Maybe procedure is going to be way more important there and it's just oh, we changed. I'm like, of course we changed because our forms of respect have changed, because they have to evolve with our work and who we are. You can't you're going to have different rules when you're 10 people versus like 10,000 people, absolutely. I had told you earlier how we'll survey organizations on what causes misalignment around respect and I told you working remotely is a big one.
Speaker 2:Another big one that people vote on lack of clarity from leadership. And when leadership sees that they're and sometimes I mean there are some organizations where it's actually pretty low but the ones that are just high it's just like oh, oh. And sometimes I see leaders and you talked about hierarchy too it's so easy to say, oh, we're flat here. Everything we want to make everyone happy. We will never be able to make everyone happy at the same time. So we need to be clear on why we are prioritizing this form of respect and why we're deprioritizing the other forms. What are the consequences of that? Because I think a lot of people try to go into nice to have land and make it a nice to have into must, but we actually really there's only so much energy and we're not trying to be perfect. Actually, seven forms of respect is anti-perfection. By the way, it's like this is what we got. Yeah, I'm being contradictory right now. Why am I being contradictory? I have to ask myself that.
Speaker 1:So in the spirit of progress over perfection. This sounds like a massive change management undertaking because you've got what some people have just always known and this new structure, that kind of challenges that in a lot of ways. Right. What are some of the biggest challenges you see people and organizations having in adopting a more expanded view of what respect looks like?
Speaker 2:I don't think this is just in organizations. I think this is in our world. People want black and white answers. They want to know what is right and what is wrong. Once, at the end of sharing this, doing a workshop on this, someone in the audience said you've taught us how to ask questions. I want to know how to answer questions. That is the question of leadership. Right? There is no answer, and so the hardest thing is for people to understand. There is no clear answer, and so the hardest thing is for people to understand. There is no clear answer. Latasha, I also want to be really clear on it. And there is illegal. So we're not talking about things that are illegal If you're bullying or if it's assault or if there's something that are clearly illegal, not even about disrespect. That is just illegal.
Speaker 1:Julie, let's just pause here. Disclaimer, folks we are only talking through legal parameters, we're not talking about anything illegal.
Speaker 2:Right, because sometimes people are like, but then they did this and this and I'm like, yeah, that's illegal, that's against your company policy, so we're not arguing about that. Yes, that was wrong. I'm talking about the big gray. There's so much ambiguity and we're never going to have some precise rules around this. What we are going to be able to do is how do we talk through this? And so some of the pushback that I get on this is some people get really frustrated by how relative it is.
Speaker 2:I want a straight answer and I just have to tell them it depends. We are different. We are going to have different priorities depending on am I on this team or in the department or in the org, just like am I with my parents versus my friends? We show up differently and I think, with some forms of respect, it recognizes that and we just want to give people language to. I'm not being contradictory and hypocritical in terms of that. I'm not being hypocritical. It's just I'm adjusting and I'm flexing. It can be a challenge for people to go away from black and white thinking and to be comfortable with that gray, and yet I think that gray and the conversation is about embracing that change management. It's always going to change.
Speaker 1:I feel like tucked in there is this willingness to be transparent enough to say I don't have the answers, and this willingness to model that it's okay not to have all the answers. My team, we do a lot of work where decisions are constantly in flux and we still have this deadline and it's not going to move.
Speaker 1:The reality is you've got to get started with what you have and I share with them all the time I'm going to work to get as much information as we can. But what can we do with what we have? And that has set the tone, for it's okay for us to not have all the answers, to say I've got nothing right To say I'll circle back if I find more or when I find more.
Speaker 1:So something else for leaders to think through. Like is there some fear there in not just being okay with not having all the answers? And what is that fear based in? Is it based in culturally folks expect you to have all the answers and so you feel like you have to have all the answers.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so, latasha. Now we're kind of going back to the practicing curiosity. So many organizations put curiosity as a value, something they care about, and yet studies have shown that I think it's 60 or 70% of people say they don't feel that it's practice on a regular basis and 70% of people don't feel they can ask questions at work. Have they said that? 70%? Why? Okay, give me more on that. Oh yes, oh yes, I'm very curious and, latasha, I'll tell you who.
Speaker 2:The worst culprits are Consultants, really Consultants. And when we work I know well, no, when we work with consulting companies, what we found out is that they feel a lot of pressure to know the answers. So their questions are more like are you one, or are you this or this? Are you this or this? And so they're trying to go through their vetting to see which answer should they now deliver. And it was actually working with a prominent local consulting company in Seattle where I ended up coming up with a article on eight reasons why people don't want to ask questions. And they're afraid of being passive. They're afraid of being seen as indecisive, looking incompetent, looking like they weren't listening, making their team look bad. There are all these reasons of why they don't want to ask questions, and I think leadership actually has to model that. They have to model. Oh, I'm sorry I wasn't listening there. Can you explain that again?
Speaker 2:Or I'm sorry, or can you tell me that acronym? Or maybe even if you know what the acronym is, you suspect other people don't. So what is that? And it's so funny the times I've asked about acronyms oh, I'm glad I asked because that was so far from what I had guessed right, and there's probably someone else in the room who doesn't know either right.
Speaker 1:That's been my experience. I will apologize all day long. I am sorry if I'm wasting the rest of our team's time here, but I just want to make sure that I'm on the same page. Can you give me a little bit more with that Right? And I've always had someone come up to me after to say thank you for asking that question. I was wondering the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that there's also. We talk about curiosity as a practice and having three elements, and the first is self-awareness, the second is relationship building and the third is clear communication. And so self-awareness. Most people think that they're self-aware. Only 10 to 15% of them actually fit that criteria. And, latasha, anyone who tells you they're always self-aware, they're the ones who are not Right. If you think you have no blind spots you got some blind spots.
Speaker 1:Well, that's grounded in research. We've seen a lot of studies. I'm sure on self-efficacy and our perception right, but what does someone do to try to build the practice of curiosity? Like, even if it's just a start here, then once you start seeing X, y, z, take it to this level, not to overwhelm anyone, but it's got to start somewhere as a practice right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the first thing is stop just saying be curious and talking about the importance of curiosity. Everyone understands the importance of curiosity and that it's good to be curious. Actually, I think a good step is to admit when we're not curious, when we're not practicing curiosity oh, I didn't ask enough questions that day, or oh, I'll give you an example. I had a client who made a request over email, and I was pretty outraged by this request. I can't believe they asked me this and I'm griping about it. I kind of even sent a borderline I don't know why you're asking me this that I complained to a friend, and I was just can you just help me see this in another way, because I'm really struggling here. I can't believe they asked me to do this, and then she said why don't you just ask them what they meant? I'm like, of course, practice curiosity, okay, and I went back and I said so, you asked for this. What did you mean by that? They had a totally reasonable request.
Speaker 2:I, though, had jumped to all these conclusions, and so I share that. It's just like even and Latasha, this was not long ago. This is, like you know and just kind of being aware that, yeah, our emotions can get in the way. So, number one, talking about the times when we are not practicing curiosity and then going to people and saying I'm feeling this or I'm seeing this, what do you think? And I don't need you to just validate me, I actually want you to know what you think or help me see this in another way. So I think that can help us practice the self-awareness part. I get frustrated by people who complain about people not being self-aware. They can't help it. We can't help it when we don't know something.
Speaker 1:Especially in the moment. It's so hard to pause in the moment and say okay, let me question my assumptions. Right now Is what I think I'm experiencing, really what's happening. And it's so hard because when we're communicating directly like this, the expectation is that you're going to respond in the moment, not that you're going to say, hey, you know what, can I get a few minutes? I just need to reflect for a few moments, or can we even pick this conversation up later, because I just want to make sure that I've processed everything, but we don't do that, not in the moment.
Speaker 2:Pausing, pausing, we need to pause. And I'll tell you, one of my team members was just Julie can I practice some curiosity with you? I have some feedback. And I was like all right, and I heard it. And then I was just like thank you, let me think about this. All right, and I came back because I knew that if I started getting into it I would start getting defensive. I knew that, so I asked I just need some time, can we go back to this? And then I went back a couple of days later I processed it with some people. I realized she was right.
Speaker 2:That was painful to admit and I think that just asking, even getting feedback, just in general, there's so much pressure to react in the moment and a lot of times we don't. We should not be reacting in the moment. We should just actually say I need some time to think about this. So much conflict could be actually avoided by just saying I need some time to think about it, which is different from oh, you didn't mean it, or oh, like I'm going to just push it past and no, it's actually. I need time to think about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the practice of curiosity, I think, lends itself in so many different ways, and I think about all of the efforts towards diversity and inclusion, you know, especially today and the need to be curious, I agree, in the moment is probably not the best, depending on the type of curiosity being explored at the moment. But being able to step away and say, am I really asking the right questions here, even with the feedback being provided, in order to accommodate or foster an environment that is inclusive, that does allow people to feel safe, providing feedback from their own unique perspectives and backgrounds, it's a challenge within itself to even get to that place. What do you recommend to people when they're acutely aware that this is an opportunity for us to be more curious, especially when we want to create a more inclusive environment? What do I do, not just for myself I think we talked about the pausing and the reflection and all but for the environment to help manage up and across, to help foster that environment.
Speaker 2:What do I do? So I'm going to say something a bit controversial here. Okay, and I know a lot of people talk about. It's not about the intention, it's about the impact, and I actually think what we say or do will have different impact on different people. So how can we possibly control for the impact? So I'm going to be giving a specific example.
Speaker 2:As an Asian American, I get asked the question where are you from? Now, this question, where are you from can bother a lot of Asian Americans because it can feel very othering, especially if they speak English with the fluent American accent or they're born in the US or their family's been in the US for a long time, and it can feel very othering. I don't have that feeling when people ask me where am I from? I'm just oh, now I get to tell you about my ancestors and about my family and I get to ask you where are you from? My point here is that question will have different impact on different people, and yet I've heard from people who are not Asian do never, never ask any Asian Americans where they are from.
Speaker 2:That question is off limits, right, and so that assumes that that question will have the same impact on everyone and instead, if you don't like that question, you can actually ask do you mean what my ethnicity is or what my nationality? You can ask questions around the question. You can ask oh, before I answer that I'd like to know why you're interested in knowing. And you can also say you know, I'm not comfortable sharing this is, I think, that there's so much focus on not asking questions. I mean, going back to 70% of people feel that they can't ask questions and they're afraid of that outrage on the other end. If I ask this, then it will elicit this response.
Speaker 1:So I better not say anything and what we don't do is tell people it's okay to decline a question or try to understand the question being asked, but I love what you just said there, because you've undoubtedly heard people say don't answer a question with a question, but this is a great example of when responding to a question with a question is not only a great demonstration of curiosity, but it will probably help you get to a place of understanding some common ground much sooner than what's probably happening, which is the assumption that you know why they asked that question, which is probably where the reaction initially comes from of don't ever ask me that question. Why would you ask me that question, right? I think that's a very great example you just shared there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we don't know. Oh, they're othering me and in fact no, they have a sister-in-law who's Vietnamese and they want to connect right and we don't actually know. Or it's just oh well, actually my grandmother's Vietnamese and you're white presenting. I would have no idea. So there are so many things that we actually don't know, and then what ends up happening is people censor themselves and this creates this. I actually think of psychological safety, and indicator of psychological safety is do people actually feel comfortable asking questions and then also declining them or asking to pause? I need some more time to think about that. Oh, and also Latasha, I want to be really clear. I'm not saying assume good intent, I'm saying learn the intention.
Speaker 1:I think it's important if you can give a little bit more about not assuming intent, because, depending on your experience and so when I say early career, I don't necessarily mean that you're Gen Z coming into the workplace necessarily, but this might be beneficial for you. You may have made different career transitions, you may be in a different season, and I think it's so important what you just said that this is not assuming positive intent. Can you give a little bit more on that?
Speaker 2:Tasha, I think that the only difference between good intent and bad intent is if I like you or I don't like you. So two people could do the same thing. But I like one person. So they didn't mean it. That was good intent. They meant to help me when they were sending me reminders on how to do this thing. But the other person who was sending me reminders thinks that I don't know how to do my job and they're micromanaging me and they had bad intent. Oh wow, they did the same thing, right? And also, what happens is we dismiss it. Oh person, they didn't mean it. They wanted to help me. I'm not going to say anything.
Speaker 2:And the person with a bad intent? Usually I'm going to go talk about it to other people and complain about how they were trying to micromanage me, and what we don't do is… enter a conversation of oh, I see that you're sending me a lot of reminders. Can I just understand why? Or I know you're sending me reminders, I just want you to know you don't need to do that unless I'm asking you, don't worry, I know that this is important. Or do you need visibility because of this, because you're afraid of this? And they can say yes or no right, and trying to understand their intention. And here's the thing A lot of times they don't know their intention. We actually don't know why we do the things we do, and so that conversation can actually help. What is my intention in this?
Speaker 2:I'll go back to the seven forms of respect when we are doing our research, because one of the things we ask people to think about is who in my life, what experiences have influenced how I think about respect?
Speaker 2:Because it's all been socialized. This is where it's just, it's not absolute. And then we had this one person who realized wow, growing up, my parents spoke limited English and I translated for them, and so I had to give very clear instructions, because there are consequences to instructions being delivered incorrectly. So even now that carries into my work, I give very clear instructions about how things need to get done, and people interpret that as being micromanaging. And yet I realize now where it came from. It came from this childhood experience with real consequences. And so now, if she can go and explain that story to others, they understand where she's coming from. They don't think that she's just being micromanaging, and that's why she prioritizes procedure. But that also requires us asking ourselves and knowing that story, because a lot of times we don't know where it comes from, we don't know why we care about what we care about.
Speaker 1:I almost feel like it would be better if we would just not label the intent to begin with, right. So it's not a good intention, it's not a bad intention, it's a question. And I share this experience. I won't name any names, they will probably hear this and know who I'm talking to or about I ask questions all day long.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's just.
Speaker 1:My job is to ask questions, and it doesn't occur to me that in me asking questions that I might be inadvertently making someone feel like I don't trust them or that they don't know what they're doing.
Speaker 1:And that is the feedback that I've received is that, hey, when you ask so many questions, it makes me feel like and I guess this is around that same micromanaging feeling it makes me feel like you don't really trust me or you don't believe that I know what I'm doing here. And in reality, it's really me just trying to get an understanding of whatever is happening, most times because I expect to be asked a ton of questions. Most times because I expect to be asked a ton of questions. So, if I don't ask you right now and to your point, earlier around, being honest, around, did I ask enough questions? I don't know the answers to this, because maybe I didn't ask enough questions, so I am programmed to just ask a ton of questions. What I've asked in return is extend me enough grace to assume positivity, just assume that I'm just asking for information sake, or ask me to your point. Why am I asking you those questions if I haven't offered that as an explanation for you already.
Speaker 2:And so in the seven forms of respect framing, if you're asking deep, probing questions, then that might mean that you prioritize candor and especially if those questions are meant to improve something, if it's meant to just understand, then that could be the prioritizing information and someone else might not prioritize that. And I remember a lot of this work came from my experience doing community organizing with people from really different backgrounds, and I remember so clearly on a team there was a labor organizer and an engineer, and the engineer kept asking deep, probing questions. And the labor organizer is just why are you asking me all these questions? I got this. And so the engineer is just I'm just trying to show you I'm interested, and the other person felt disrespected, felt mistrust, and so that just gets at. We want different things. And here's the thing Maybe that person getting asked all the questions in a different relationship might be asking a lot of questions. And so with a peer felt, why are you asking all these questions? Yet with someone who's had more power, or their boss, oh yeah, I'm supposed to be asked questions. Hierarchy plays a lot into this and plays into how we're going to perceive something. So, and all of this is to say it's dynamic and it changes and it's about recognizing it.
Speaker 2:And then going back to the organizational piece, it's really hard to keep track of all the things LaTosha wants and all the things that Julie wants.
Speaker 2:What we can do when we're in the workplace is what's important at work, what's important to this team, what are the consequences when we don't have that? Is it a nice to have it or is it a must have? And if that's the case, then at work we can agree that asking these deep, probing questions, challenging playing devil's advocate, is something we want to have and that's something that helps us support our shared work. It's not about ooh, latasha likes it, so we'll do it. It's actually becomes a bit depersonalized and it can be oh, it's over there, versus we're trying to cater to individuals, which is really hard because we're contradictory, right, and so it's just Latasha likes it today, but not tomorrow. And what changed? But if we can say like this is what we need on the team right now for the stage of the work, then getting back to that clear communication from leadership if they can explain, that helps a lot. Clear communication from leadership.
Speaker 1:If they can explain, that helps a lot. So what other strategies come to mind? In overcoming barriers in communication, it sounds like we've got to get grounded in what works for the team and what works for the organization. So, getting above self, what are the strategies do you think of when it comes to? Okay, these are some barriers and these are some strategies that would help you in overcoming that.
Speaker 2:So I talked about curiosity as a practice and we've been talking about self-awareness and also I'll talk about relationship building and I'll talk about clear communication. Those are the two other elements. So with relationship building, it's about getting curious about other people and letting them get curious about me. So a lot of times people think, oh, curiosity is just I'm going to ask other people all these questions but I'm not going to share anything of myself. And actually we have to allow for the space of reactions. Someone tells me something, I'm going to react, share my interpretations. I need to share myself so that they can also react, and then from their reactions I'm going to learn, and that is reciprocity. That's actually the foundation of relationship building.
Speaker 2:So here's another reframe. I've heard people say it's not my job to educate you. Go find out on your own. And the way that I think about that is oh, if you just want to educate me and you think you have nothing to learn from me, then yeah, I don't want to be in this relationship with you, right? I don't want that Actually. I want engagement. I want to have back and forth. How can I be with someone who doesn't think they have anything to learn from?
Speaker 1:me too, and I want to exchange with someone who's genuinely interested in not just hearing themselves.
Speaker 2:Yes, right and so. That back and forth, right and so and so. The strategy is how do we make space for that? So here's a very simple one In a regular sync meeting, this is what we do on my core team 25% of our weekly core team meeting, so 30 minutes, is spent on doing highs and lows, and then every month we have a question. We practice every week to practice accountability.
Speaker 2:Studies have showed that if people can talk about their lows in their personal life, they are much more likely to be open about the bad things that are happening at work, like I need help on that, or it's stuck, or this is what's wrong. If we only talk about I'm fine, it's good, I'm good, then that translates to work too. So that's one strategy is being able to share, and so people you might also say, oh, being vulnerable. So this is that relationship building part. The other element is clear communication. So this is about listening to understand, asking questions while we don't understand, and clear examples and stories. So we've talked a lot about asking questions. I'll talk about listening to understand. The more senior leaders get, the less they listen. I mean, the talking muscle is just much more prominent, right? It's much more clear and they might also think that people want to hear me talk and because of positional power. That's true, right. So to truly practice a lot of times, how do we listen to understand and recognize when we're not listening?
Speaker 2:I've been embarrassed to be in meetings where I was so focused on what I was saying that when it came to recapping, I was just, oh, I can't recap because I was so focused on thinking about what I was going to say. So, actually even admitting that. And then the other thing, clear examples and stories. So, even with respect, a lot of people speak in vague terms. So, for example, with respect, punctuality comes up a lot. How do you want respect? Well, punctuality. Well, why is that important to you? Because it is Well. Why? Because it's respectful. I'll tell you why it's important to me.
Speaker 2:My mom was always late picking me up from school and the school staff had to wait with me. I felt a lot of anxiety that they had to wait. I carry that anxiety to this day. That's why I feel the way that I do around punctuality. And I'm giving you a very clear example and you will remember that. You may not remember punctuality, but you'll remember that story. So, even when we talk about clear communication, it's how do we speak in terms of examples and clear stories in the language that people understand. I see a lot of intellectual bullying happening and people use jargon and they throw it out there and then other people are just I don't know that word, I don't want to get known that word.
Speaker 1:Give me an example, Julie. Don't get too techie.
Speaker 2:Privilege, no privilege, privilege. So, for example, people talk about privilege. Well, you know I'm privileged and that's why I am the way I am, and then I'll push back on it. Does that mean that your parents paid for school? Does that mean that you got here because someone introduced you, got you an internship? What does that mean? Because I think we are all privileged in different ways. So I want a specific example. If you just say privilege, I mean Latasha. It is a privilege to know what privilege means, and you know what I mean. So tell me an example and a story so it can be concrete in our minds and that is what people will remember.
Speaker 1:And that, to me, raises two flags. There's the vulnerability piece that you mentioned, that a lot of people, I'll say, traditionally vulnerability has not been seen as a strength, or at least it hasn't been treated as a strength. And then there's the reflection being able to step back long enough to say why does that matter to me, in order for me to be able to articulate it in a way that sticks with someone right. So that example you shared to me was very vulnerable, but you had clearly thought about, you had connected the dots between your childhood experience with being picked up late and why it's so important to you, the emotion that it evokes in you, and how that translates into your work environment as part of the practice of curiosity. Does the practice of reflection go hand in hand with that?
Speaker 2:Yes. So self-awareness self-awareness which also requires time for self-reflection. So, going back to respect a lot of times, if I don't get respect in the ways that I want, I can feel disrespected, and that assumes that that person has the same idea as me. And so, when I was starting to do this research, I would ask people, how do you want to be treated? And they said, with respect. And I said, well, what does respect mean to you? And they would say they would talk about the golden rule treat people the way you want to be treated, right? And so the thing about the golden rule is what if they don't want to be treated the way you want to be treated?
Speaker 2:So I actually have what I call the rubber band rule, so I got a rubber band here, and so what this is is actually we are flexible, latasha, I know you like that, and even though I'm kind of indifferent, I'll stretch for you, right, I'm going to stretch for you. And then I'm in. I'm at work. Man, everyone loves saying how amazing everyone is all the time. Okay, I'll do that, even though I just feel. I think that we should only talk about work that is exceptional. But okay, let's, let's talk about they. They submitted the deadline on time. Yay and so, and so I'm stretching and I'm stretching. And you know what happens when we stretch and stretch and stretch and stretch we snap and break. So the rubber band rule is about knowing what are my internal breaking points, what's going to make me snap. That requires a lot of practicing, inward curiosity and making time for self-reflection, because I need to be able to articulate that for myself. If I can't explain it to myself, how can I expect anyone else to know? And yet that's what happens, not just in the workplace, anywhere. Can you believe that they did that? Why did that bother you? I'll give you another example.
Speaker 2:Years ago I was really bothered by someone. I was trying to transition out of working at the newspaper and I was doing all these informational interviews and I talked to someone at a big tech company and I told her about all my experience at the newspaper and then she said do you mind if I ask you if you have a degree? And I was just yes, I have a PhD. And then I proceeded to complain about that person to everyone else, feeling all this outrage for years, actually speaking on a public stage about how dare this person ask me? Clearly, I'm educated. You know what I didn't ask myself, latosha, why was I so bothered by that? Because I actually have a lot of friends who never went to college. What are my own assumptions and expectations? Huh, it didn't, until someone asked me.
Speaker 2:Who asked me why did that bother you? I'm like, oh, why did that bother me? And so I had to. Once I got past the outrage which, by the way, was years like then, I was actually able to practice some self-awareness and some inward curiosity and I learned something about myself. And so that goes back to the gray right, because then it was just oh, maybe that person, maybe there's a special program for people who don't have degree, who didn't go to college, and that she could get me in that way. I didn't know, because I just assumed that she was looking down at me and that also said something about where I was in my life. Then, too, I was feeling pretty insecure about being able to find any relevance outside of working at my family's newspaper.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's the reference to internal curiosity. You have to step back long enough to ask that question around. Why did I react that way? In order to challenge it right? Like I can't even begin to challenge my own perception of things if I don't know, like I guess in the moment it was, I don't like how that felt, that's about it right and I am curious now do you think you can reach back out and ask why she asked you that question?
Speaker 2:don't forget to ask, oh uh, we are not in contact anymore, yeah, and I mean, and you know and it's, I feel like I got my lesson, which was, oh, and it took a long time, and this is another thing. Sometimes these lessons take a long time, and it also took me sharing with people, and this goes back to the relationship building part. If I tell my story, people are going to react and I'm going to learn something about myself.
Speaker 1:And it's about whether or not you're going to receive or what pieces you might receive. You might. The feedback you receive is going to be based on other people's experiences, their perceptions, things like that. Right, so you don't have to take everything, but what could you take with you?
Speaker 2:It's so interesting and that's the reason we all have. We all get skeletal information and we're going to fill in the blanks with our own experiences, and I've actually. It's just, it's actually much more interesting for me to understand why you filled it in the way you did versus the way I did, versus saying my way is right, and to have that conversation. That is actually much more interesting than to try to persuade you. And so, actually, I have learned, so, even though I published the book second birthday actually, so May 2022 is when it first came out and I've learned so much just by working with my clients. And so one of the things the big assumptions I made was that, because I share a structure of this is how you have a conversation and approach a difficult conversation with curiosity, and it ends with asking questions to understand the intention, not to change the outcome, but to understand the intention, clearly know why they did it. I know why they did it, and so I realized I had to create a speed bump and I was assuming that they would want to ask questions, and so and I actually did a TEDx talk on this and curiosity as a practice. And so now, here's the structure, now, before you can even enter this conversation.
Speaker 2:I need you to ask yourself two questions. The first question is entered this conversation, I need you to ask yourself two questions. The first question is do I want them to learn from me? Yeah, I want them to learn from me, right? The second question is am I willing to learn from them? Am I willing to learn from them? Can I honestly say yes, not all the time, before I enter the conversation, right? And if that's the case, then don't enter the go practice that conversation. Go talk it through with someone, not all the time. I have no space for that, and I can actually go into a conversation too early. I can have a conversation too early if I'm not ready to learn from them, and this is actually one of the other things. Sometimes I think we are so focused on being problem solvers that we don't slow down to think about what is this problem teaching me?
Speaker 1:Or am I even focused on the right problem?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So even in the process of writing the book and then engaging real time with people and realizing I need to create a speed bump in guiding people through this process of practicing, curiosity was just getting them to have that internal question. Because when I do this in organizations, people are just oh, I've been thinking about that part. Right, I just want a structure to tell them how I'm right. And also there are times where it really is a two-way street. If the person's not willing to learn from you, but you've asked the question, then you've done what you can, right. But I mean, if they're not, if they are not in the position to learn, then nothing's going to change. I have no secret tool to get people to change their mind. It's more of just how do we both leave understanding each other's intentions, which also includes me understanding my own intentions better, because maybe I didn't realize it until I had this conversation with someone and understood how they were interpreting it.
Speaker 1:I love that because I imagine that there's a lot of seed planting where you'll never see the fruit of the seed right. But that seed that was planted 20 years ago has somehow sprouted into something amazing and maybe we weren't meant to be there. We were just meant to be there to plant the seed but not to see it grow. Yes, I love that. So, as we wrap up today, Julie, what final thoughts or advice would you like to give our audience, especially for anyone who's looking to embrace curiosity, respect, diversity, both in their personal and professional lives?
Speaker 2:Relationships take risk. So to build a relationship, someone's got to ask someone else. Right? Like, take that risk, ask a question that might feel a little risky, ask to hang out, ask to and this is at work too. Hey, can we have a conversation? Can I understand that better? I think people are afraid of taking risk and yet that's the thing that we need to do. Someone's got to do it, I've been told. I have a really big community and network and I've taken a lot of risk and there are people who ignore me and say no, and I've had a lot more people who say yes. So I guess that's my final piece of advice Take some risk with relationship building. Practice curiosity. I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Now, he did ask for a lot of things today, julie.
Speaker 1:I mean just the curiosity, being more curious is going to blow some folks' mind, but that risk-taking, the vulnerability piece of it right, the being willing to not only explore whether or not you're truly interested enough to be curious, but whether or not you want to learn from someone else those are huge, huge challenges for the audiences. That's what we'll call it. Challenge yourself to practice these things. Dr Julie, I so appreciate you being here today. This has been an amazing conversation and what I'm eager to hear is how the audience applies some of what you've shared today. It may not be an overnight hey, I've got it down pat but just a little bit of practice every day goes a long way. I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation, wasn't that something? Today we covered a lot about respect, curiosity and how important it is to really understand each other better. Dr Julie Pham gave us some great food for thought on how changing our approach to curiosity and respect can help improve our relationships and work environment. If this episode got you thinking, why not share it with someone who might also find it helpful? And don't forget to subscribe to Thanks for Coming Back so you don't miss our next discussion. They're only going to get better. Take a minute to reflect on how you can bring a bit more curiosity into your day-to-day life. Thanks for joining us today and remember great leadership is all about growing right where you are. Catch you next time, and once again, thanks for coming back.
